Curse

careyt · Sep 09, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You do realize that no matter how slow you do it, it's still technically farming? Once you've done an area once, everything that follows is, by definition, farming.

actually that isn't 100% true. when most people refer to farming, it's usually meant as doing a repetitive task, or series of tasks, in order to get something. Whether it's XP, gold, drops, or titles. I don't usually do that. I play the game because I enjoy using my character to kill things and follow the storyline. I don't see how that can be defined as "Farming" honestly as I'm not farming for anything other than a chance to play a game with people. I guess I'm farming for "fun". lmao, some of you jaded people who feel the game is dead and isn't played for fun anymore just crack me the hell up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Recap:
Anyone who thinks an SF nerf will bring back balanced teams is deluding themselves.

actually I don't know if it will or not, I just know it's going to have a better chance without perma SF.

Jeydra · Sep 09, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i play the occasional AB, RA, random pve mission, and some gvg. i turn all the luxon/kurzick faction i have into materials, leave after every RA match whether i have a good group or not. i do pve missions purely to play with my friends who can't pvp well. lastly, i gvg because i enjoy it.

what am i farming? unless you believe you can actually farm FUN, then i guess i'm not farming anything now, am i?

if that's the cause, please retract your last statement. it is incorrect.

I get the feeling the people who oppose the Shadow Form nerf are those people who're selling Ectos / ZKeys etc for real life $$$, and the nerf is so going to hurt their income, and they can't stand it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Recap:
Anyone who thinks an SF nerf will bring back balanced teams is deluding themselves.

I don't care. I just care that SF dies. This one skill is the cornerstone of so many exceedingly fast clears the game is simply better off with other farming builds than with it. After all, can you imagine 600/Smite doing the whole of Slaver's (including all four bosses) in an hour? What about Obsidian tanks?

Riot Narita · Sep 09, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You do realize that no matter how slow you do it, it's still technically farming? Once you've done an area once, everything that follows is, by definition, farming.

Based on past outcries and raging drama queens here on guru:
Once you've done an area once, everything that follows is, by definition, GRINDING. Not farming.

:-P

Targren · Sep 09, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

Yeah, Cobalt is right. There are hardly any players left. Go to a random town, say Kaineng or Kamadan, and I will guarantee you it is empty...

Seriously dude, this game has more than enough players left. And I'm sure 90% of them will keep playing after SF is nerfed.

That might be a bit more honest if you actually do go to a "random town" instead of zooming in on the two most congested towns in the game...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I get the feeling the people who oppose the Shadow Form nerf are those people who're selling Ectos / ZKeys etc for real life $$$, and the nerf is so going to hurt their income, and they can't stand it.

I don't know about that.
#1) Shadow form doesn't effect Zkeys. At all.
#2) By any logic, a shadow form nerf will *raise*, not lower, prices for ectos both in game and for the RMT scum. They have numbers of employees who can farm for ectos (even in tombs, if it becomes necessary!), and would likely be in favor of this, since it reduces their competition.

Your efforts to rhetorically demonize the opposition by associating them with RMTs is intellectually dishonest and plain wrong.

Jeydra · Sep 09, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I'll admit it wasn't the best way of putting it, but I'll also point out that I didn't accuse everyone who opposes the nerf to be trading in real life money ("I get the feeling ...").

By the way Shadow Form obviously affects ZKeys because the more money you got the more ZKeys you can buy. Also of course a nerfed Shadow Form will raise prices of the things you can farm directly with Shadow Form, but not necessarily others, e.g. lots of ZKeys are generated from ATs and such by players unaffiliated with gold-selling companies, who'd then be able to out-compete them, yada yada yada.

In any case I'm just insulted by some people's assertion that after you've done everything, all that's left for you is to farm. Like what the heck. This argument is so ridiculous and the refutation so obvious I get the feeling only the people who do precisely this even advance this argument, and of course people who only play this game to farm stuff they can sell for real-life money would fall head-first into this category.

Nerf Shadow Form, make it impossible to maintain or change its functionality or whatever, I don't care, just make it such that teams based on Permas can't farm dungeons / missions / areas 10x faster than everyone else.

Enon · Sep 09, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

That might be a bit more honest if you actually do go to a "random town" instead of zooming in on the two most congested towns in the game...

That would only work if those "random towns" aren't empty before SF gets nerfed, which obviously isn't the case.

AtomicMew · Sep 09, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

In any case I'm just insulted by some people's assertion that after you've done everything, all that's left for you is to farm. Like what the heck. This argument is so ridiculous and the refutation so obvious

And now , the flipside. That the argument went this way was entirely predictable.

The argument has gone like this:
After you beat the game, everything you do is essentially farming. Farming based on SF is the only thing enjoyable left in the game.

Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms.

Counter-refutation: Exactly, it's all preference.

Several people have expressed that they prefer "storyline" (which honestly, is quite beyond me.) You prefer non-SF based activities. But the fact is, a very LARGE number of people enjoy SF-based activities.

In this light, saying you want SF nerfed sounds pretty selfish. Its also pretty hypocritical.

toocooltang · Sep 09, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Why does everyone get all upset over nerfs? When ursan was nerfed it was the best thing to happen to me because I got to learn how to play the game all over agian. If SF gets nerfed so what? You can't do UWSC anymore, is that really a huge deal? Its a great time to go play other classes and try new builds for different things. I know you might not think its true, but you still can do elite areas without shadowform

moriz · Sep 09, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

And now , the flipside. That the argument went this way was entirely predictable.

The argument has gone like this:
After you beat the game, everything you do is essentially farming. Farming based on SF is the only thing enjoyable left in the game.

Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms.

Counter-refutation: Exactly, it's all preference.

Several people have expressed that they prefer "storyline" (which honestly, is quite beyond me.) You prefer non-SF based activities. But the fact is, a very LARGE number of people enjoy SF-based activities.

In this light, saying you want SF nerfed sounds pretty selfish. Its also pretty hypocritical.

so in other words, here's your counter argument:

assertion: After completing the storyline, there's nothing to do but farm.
Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms.

Counter-refutation: Exactly, oranges taste good.

your counter to the counter has absolutely nothing to do with your assertion. in fact, your assertion is an all-encompassing blanket statement, which leaves no room for "preference", as you put it.

lastly, i highly doubt that there's a very LARGE number of people who enjoy using SF. you might want to back up your claim before spouting off.

HawkofStorms · Sep 09, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Once you deconstruct the argument down to the point where "playing a game = farming" you basically are arguing not against the value of Guild Wars, but about the value of video games as a concept.

Using some of the logic here, I half expect people here to live in a small wooden cabin in the middle of the woods far away from all technology.

Life Bringing · Sep 09, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Why does everyone get all upset over nerfs? When ursan was nerfed it was the best thing to happen to me because I got to learn how to play the game all over agian. If SF gets nerfed so what? You can't do UWSC anymore, is that really a huge deal? Its a great time to go play other classes and try new builds for different things. I know you might not think its true, but you still can do elite areas without shadowform

I swear that you and everyone else hasn't read a single thing i've posted in this thread. UWSC won't end with an SF nerf, and it won't be much slower. Sure, 7 minute runs won't be possible anymore, but i can guarantee 15-20 will still be done just fine, with a higher rate of survivability for the terras

SonofGrenth · Sep 09, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

If they reduce duration and forget that it could be maintainable with essence+paradox+swiftness, ill crap my pants. for real.

Coverticus · Sep 09, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

It's amazing how the focus seems to be purely on UWSC for this.

Anyway I could type chapter and verse in terms of my viewpoints but have said them too many times within other threads on this very subject.

All I will say it this - I hope ANet put a decent amount of thought and testing into the changes they are making/have made to Shadow Form (and potentially others based upon the skills sets used by Permas). But what makes me a little mad is this would have been the perfect opportunity for the Test Krewe to get their hands dirty on this and try and break whatever ANet do to it. Sadly though, since the TK is going to be focussed on PvP for now, this will be a missed boat.

Unless ANet have a slight rethink on this too.

Lyn_Darksight · Sep 09, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

lastly, i highly doubt that there's a very LARGE number of people who enjoy using SF. you might want to back up your claim before spouting off.

So...by this logic, people hate Shadowform farming even though it is used by a small group of people?

All you need to do to confirm the LARGE number of people enjoying the use of Shadowform is what the majority of the pro-nerf QQ'ers are complaining about...go to ToA AmDis 1 and press 'P'.

"Nerf this skill because i don't like to run it!" is a completely selfish and illogical argument. Play your own game.

Yes, I have UWSC'd. If you haven't, you might be surprised at the number of people who fail at this "invulnerable" farm.
No, this is not the only thing I play, or even the only thing I do with my Assassin.
Anyone who thinks Shadowform is invulnerable has not used it.
Shadowform has ALREADY been nerfed, and they left it maintainable on purpose!
The richest guys I know in-game did not get that way on a 'permasin', they run dungeons with a 600 Monk using a smiter hero

this post is now open for flaming

HawkofStorms · Sep 10, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

1) Pugs failing is not a judge of the OP of the farm. Good guild teams do this run consistently.

2) It's not the only thing you play, but it is the MAIN thing being played. Want to run another build in UW? Good luck getting a team for it.

3) SF is invulnerable for the locations it is used against. If you can't SF there, then you don't SF farm there. That's like saying 55 isn't a good farming build because there are enchantment striping. If there are skills that go through 55 or SF, then those areas aren't farmed with those builds.

4) And now a.net has said it was a mistake to leave it maintainable. It was an error to do it in the first place.

5) Richest players in the game got so via power trading. Farming is for chumps.

Finally, it does affect people who don't UWSC farm via inflation. It is also degenerative game play. People who SF farm don't learn skills useful for the rest of the game (aggro control, group dynamics, designing builds, etc).
Consider yourself refuted Lyn.

AtomicMew · Sep 10, 2009, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

so in other words, here's your counter argument:

assertion: After completing the storyline, there's nothing to do but farm.
Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms.

Counter-refutation: Exactly, oranges taste good.

your counter to the counter has absolutely nothing to do with your assertion. in fact, your assertion is an all-encompassing blanket statement, which leaves no room for "preference", as you put it.

...
You completely missed the point.

If the argument for nerfing SF is based on preference, then theres no reason other than selfishness to say you want SF nerfed.

That's pretty terrible.

Quote:

lastly, i highly doubt that there's a very LARGE number of people who enjoy using SF. you might want to back up your claim before spouting off.

Seriously? Seriously?

Considering how little you just admitted to knowing, you accused ME of "spouting off"? Take a look in the mirror.

Quote:

1) Pugs failing is not a judge of the OP of the farm. Good guild teams do this run consistently.

2) It's not the only thing you play, but it is the MAIN thing being played. Want to run another build in UW? Good luck getting a team for it.

1) Right, because being capable of running a build shouldn't be rewarded. People should just be able to wiki a build, enter UW and ectos should fall from the sky :roll:

2) Bad argument refuted TIME AND AGAIN. No, we won't do UW balancedway with you if SF gets nerfed.

Quote:

Finally, it does affect people who don't UWSC farm via inflation. It is also degenerative game play. People who SF farm don't learn skills useful for the rest of the game (aggro control, group dynamics, designing builds, etc).
Consider yourself refuted Lyn.

How does making elite armor and weapon skins more accessible negatively affect people who don't farm UWSC?

Also degenerative gameplay? Aggro control? Aggro is 90% of what being a good perma is all about.

Lyn refuted? No sorry. You just posted a bunch of bad arguments and straw men.

maxxfury · Sep 10, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

i like the part where people piss and moan about it all! 'Tiss fun!

If anet wants to nerf it...it will happen...in some half assed slightly off the mark kind of way

Plenty of things to do but SF an area...or grind with sf for 'titles'

Quick note: stuff gets nerfed.. adapt. Dont cry about it.

Jeydra · Sep 10, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyn_Darksight

"Nerf this skill because i don't like to run it!" is a completely selfish and illogical argument. Play your own game.

It is impossible to play your own game so long as Shadow Form exists. I argued why elsewhere. You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, like it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

...
You completely missed the point.

If the argument for nerfing SF is based on preference, then theres no reason other than selfishness to say you want SF nerfed.

That's pretty terrible.

You argued that after you finish the game once all that's left for you is to farm.

That's wrong.

Next?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

2) Bad argument refuted TIME AND AGAIN. No, we won't do UW balancedway with you if SF gets nerfed.

Since when did Shadow Form = UWSC? Shadow Form affects so many areas in the game and the UW is but one of them. Want me to list others? Can you actually advance arguments for areas other than the UW?

moriz · Sep 10, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

You completely missed the point.

If the argument for nerfing SF is based on preference, then theres no reason other than selfishness to say you want SF nerfed.

That's pretty terrible.

nice dodge, but it's not gonna work. i'm merely pointing out the incorrect assertion that "there's nothing to do in this game after the storyline but farm". you've yet to defend this statement. you've merely attacked me for supposedly wanting to remove SF and UWSC, which i have said nothing of the sort.

again, prove that "there's nothing to do in this game after the storyline but farm".

oh btw, i just dropped by temple of the ages. as of 9:45PM EST, there's less than a dozen advertisements for UWSC. for a peak time, this is pretty insignificant amount of players we're dealing with here. so no, there aren't "a very LARGE" number of players using it.

AtomicMew · Sep 10, 2009, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

again, prove that "there's nothing to do in this game after the storyline but farm".

So in other words, you're still playing this game for the storyline?

Let's be clear: why do you play this game? What exactly do you enjoy that you haven't already done a million and one times?

Quote:

oh btw, i just dropped by temple of the ages. as of 9:45PM EST, there's less than a dozen advertisements for UWSC. for a peak time, this is pretty insignificant amount of players we're dealing with here. so no, there aren't "a very LARGE" number of players using it.

ugh.....

First of all 12 people is A LOT of people... far more people than you'll ever find searching at once for any activity, besides maybe DSC or something. Remember, that's just people searching, not playing.

Secondly, why in God's name do you think 9:45 PM EST is peak time? Are you really that ethnocentric??? It is not the peak time. You clearly don't know anything about UWSC.

If you really want to get a good idea, try around ~12 hours earlier. Of course you're not going to do this, because you've already made up your mind. Even if you do, you'll make up some lame argument like "lol 2 full districts daily isn't really that many people." Come on dude... the only place that has more people is spamadan.

Stop it... Just stop. Stop denying how popular SF is. Until you can at least do this, you have zero ground to stand on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It is impossible to play your own game so long as Shadow Form exists. I argued why elsewhere. You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, like it or not.

Um, no?

Play the game how you like to play. Why concern yourself with other people? Apparently, you think that there are lots of other people that think the way you do. Why don't you guys get together and balance-way UW? What exactly is stopping you?

Is it the fact that the existence of SF makes it inefficient? I thought you said you do things for "fun" and not for "farm"? Come on, make up your mind.

Quote:

Since when did Shadow Form = UWSC? Shadow Form affects so many areas in the game and the UW is but one of them. Want me to list others? Can you actually advance arguments for areas other than the UW?

Except the post I was replying to was specifically about UW.

Next.